D&D 5E Long time players and 5e’s success

[Warpiglet-7]

Where do the long term players fit into 5e’s success?

The simple answer is that they are not that important from a numbers of players point of view. Folks leaving their 40s are not a huge block in the player pool. We get reminded of this frequently. And in some cases it is suggested that a particular game preference is not relevant because it skews “older.”
However, I think there is more to the story.


Statistics are important but some level of expertise is required to understand their implications. The layperson often looks at one variable in isolation and ignores information that challenges long held beliefs. We all do it at times. Its part of being human.

However, I think we can be misled.
What got me thinking about this was the recent release of the new PHB cover and inclusion of Greyhawk in the DMG. I went from being pretty neutral about the new books to nearly must-have status. But I am not a kid anymore so why do they care? They only care about moving units and there are not that many older players, right?
No
Without input from older/longer term gamers the product would not have been the same. I think that is safe to say. And with playtesting and consultants and designers, there were gaming vets very involved. But I think it goes further than that.

Would the game have been disseminated as widely without this demographic? Whether at game stores, clubs or otherwise? Perhaps the novices could have been seeds at high schools and colleges but would that have been the same?

Lastly, with regard to revenue…what would the revenue be without more veteran gamers? I don’t have data so if you ask for a source, I don’t have it. But I do not know many “whales” among newer players. In fact, if today is at all similar with the late 80s/early 90s, there was a lot of borrowing and copying going on. WOTC and Wizkids have made a mint off of me while my kids use my stuff---even the teens. And this I think is not totally unique. If it is revenue we are talking about, 6 out of 12 people at my tables account for 100% of “a lot” of money spent. And the other half account for none. The first group averages late 40s and the younger group late teens/early 20s.

So what is my point? My point is that the value of the longer term and older player is often underestimated by the typical poster/self-designated pundit.

And if I had clear data supporting this, I bet some of the same folks might be uncomfortable with the notion and try harder to justify the belief that older/longer term gamers are not a disproportionate part of the game’s success considering “individual to individual.”

This does not of course say who needs to be pleased moving forward. People age and die. You need new customers down the road! But I don’t think this takes away from what the grogs and longer term players have meant for 5e nor does it take away from what they mean to the near future.

Rather, TO ME the shotgun approach that WOTC is using is probably well-advised (though ponderous to some who write off the gray neckbeards as irrelevant). And I think there is more to the writing off the veteran gamer than is always explicitly stated.

In some cases it is fun to say they are few and don’t matter if their preference don’t align with the writer’s. Or, there may be some level of conflating negative things with longevity in the game. But again, people look at correlation and simplify things/stereotype to reduce their cognitive load…another human trait.

For now, I am satisfied in knowing that I still recognize the game and can have a shared language and participate with newer players, even if I am fond of warriors with bucket helms with polearms…

 

[Reynard]

You are right taht there is not a lot of data that we can point to. I would say it is pretty self evident that initially it was the veteran players returning to 5E after leaving that made 5E an initial success. I know I was one of those, who had abandoned D&D 4E for Pathfinder, but came back once it was clear 5E was a course correction (from my perspective at the time; don't @ me).

It is a lot harder to determine how long those veteran player were key to success and pop culture pushed people to return to and/or discover D&D.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Long time players are the taste makers, leaders, and influencers of D&D.
For example, Enworld is where the truly elite players gather and synthesize the future of the game.

 

[bloodtide]

I'm sure the Grayhawk book just fits to what an Outsider would think: It is the big 50th anniversary so you, once, go back to the "beginning" of the game because it is old and 50 is old. If fits like a perfect puzzle piece to them.

There are some studies showing that "people" only play games for a couple years. Though "games" is a bit vague. I'm sure they take the idea that, by there viewpoint, teens play a game for a couple years and then toss it aside when they "become an adult". After all if you get a room full of people who are around 30, many will say something like "oh, yea D&D, I played that for a little while way back...but have not played in years and years."

But the Gamer type person is not like the above: A True Gamer is for life. They like the unique aspects of RPG and make it a part of their life. While lots of others come and go, the True Gamers are here forever. And each age group and generation adds some small numbers to the True Gamers.

But the True Gamers, are nearly invisible...even more so to companies or anyone doing a study. They simply play the game, mostly in the back ground. But they are there. Anyone who was a kid after the late 70's knows about this game "dungeons and dragons" that some of the kids play. It is one of those things that young kids hear as a whisper and a (open) secret. Those kids over there, they play that D&D game.

And to be very blunt....lots of groups of True Gamers are not very open to any new members.

It gives D&D this unknown...even mystical and mysterious aura. And people get the desire to "know what it is all about". And this gets to your new gamers, buying their books online and having a D&D Beyond and all that.

The new gamers will buy the Grayhawk book as it says "D&D" on it. The true die hard Hawks might by the book just to have a "complete" set of Grayhawk books. Everyone else...it will be hit or miss...though often a lot more miss. A book that says silly things like "grayhawk is a cool place that has gray colored hawks" and some character options won't be a big draw to most gamers.

 

[Belen]

The younger players have their own view of the world. I am shocked every time I return to ENWorld because it is so different from Eric Noah's old site and the early days of the forums. The difference is not the growth of ENWorld as a brand but rather the posters. A lot of the current folks would not be able to handle the older posting culture.

That said, young people always have a more self-centered approach. They see the world through a different lens and older players are part of the past. I am sure that many of the original posters from the early days were similar. The site is 25 years old now if you count Eric Noah's original 3e site.

The truth is that older players and DMs continue to drive sales because that crowd had more disposable income and the middle-aged folks are still in charge and creating much of the content.

I am less of a fan of the virtue signaling, the old days were so problematic and must be destroyed crowd though. I hope to live long enough to see the next generation to the same thing to them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The younger players have their own view of the world. I am shocked every time I return to ENWorld because it is so different from Eric Noah's old site and the early days of the forums. The difference is not the growth of ENWorld as a brand but rather the posters. A lot of the current folks would not be able to handle the older posting culture.

That said, young people always have a more self-centered approach. They see the world through a different lens and older players are part of the past. I am sure that many of the original posters from the early days were similar. The site is 25 years old now if you count Eric Noah's original 3e site.

The truth is that older players and DMs continue to drive sales because that crowd had more disposable income and the middle-aged folks are still in charge and creating much of the content.

I am less of a fan of the virtue signaling, the old days were so problematic and must be destroyed crowd though. I hope to live long enough to see the next generation to the same thing to them.

Can't tell you much I don't get tired if being told how irrelevant I am...

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Can't tell you much I don't get tired if being told how irrelevant I am...

Well reread what I wrote as needed.

My hypothesis is veteran gamers helped make 5e a success more than people want to admit and that WOTC is doing some thing even now to acknowledge the importance of long term players.

There are people that dislike veteran longtime gamers; I don’t think they know as much as they think they do.

When they rail about corporate whatever then crow about you being in the minority, and your unimportance, you know what you are dealing with…

 

[Burnside]

Not only do I think Gen X players are a significant chunk of the player base, I think we actually get pandered to a LOT in the marketing and product choices - there is ALWAYS a nostalgia angle (80s cartoon characters in Witchlight, Icewind Dale because Drizzt, BG3 because BG 1 & 2, Acererak, Strahd, Dragonlance, Greyhawk in the new DMG, etc). Gen Xers are, as op points out, also more affluent than younger players and Gen X DMs are definitely the people who spend the most money on D&D. I'm 48, and I feel that a lot of the past decade of official D&D & licensed content has been about attempting to sell my own childhood back to me, which is generally very effective with Gen X.

I think WotC is well aware of this and markets accordingly.

I think some older players incorrectly overestimate the degree to which OTHER older players dislike the trajectory of the game over the past decade. I think some older players who feel left behind might be surprised at how many of their fellow Gen Xers really don't share their sensibilities or sense of grievance.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Some of us have been here on EN World for the entire time since Eric Noah's site.

 

[Reynard]

Not only do I think Gen X players are a significant chunk of the player base, I think we actually get pandered to a LOT in the marketing and product choices - there is ALWAYS a nostalgia angle (80s cartoon characters in Witchlight, Icewind Dale because Drizzt, BG3 because BG 1 & 2, Acererak, Strahd, Dragonlance, Greyhawk in the new DMG, etc). Gen Xers are, as op points out, also more affluent than younger players and Gen X DMs are definitely the people who spend the most money on D&D. I'm 48, and I feel that a lot of the past decade of official D&D & licensed content has been about attempting to sell my own childhood back to me, which is generally very effective with Gen X.

While it would be hard to speak to which cohort spends the most money, GenX is a small and shrinking component of the player base, as has been shown by WotC's own data. We are vastly over-represented here, which makes it seem like we are more relevant than we actually are. Millenials -- aka 90s kids -- make up a lot more of the players as well as incoming designers, and you can see it very clearly in the aesthetics of the game for the past 5 or more years.