Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Abomination Vaults 5e Pushed Back to January 2024
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Kichwas" data-source="post: 9041934" data-attributes="member: 891"><p>Thankfully being deleted. Or at least no future reference to them. Too many fans to just say the word 'delete' even though the effect will be the same.</p><p></p><p>While it is OGL, there is other stuff staying that arguably needs just as much tweaking to be free of OGL. Like Orcs. Both have little to do with the etymology of the words they come from and little to do with prior to D&D versions of creatures like them (Tolkien's Orcs were arguably an Elf with a subclass or heritage).</p><p></p><p>But Drow also have the legacy of being a 'race who started out White, and had their skin turned black because they rejected the Elf God.' And you can argue all day about 'was that African Black or Obsidian Black' but it doesn't matter - that same story is known as the '<strong>Curse of Ham</strong>' and was used during the Atlantic Slave Trade to justify enslaving Africans...</p><p></p><p>And while it was retconned out of the Drow before the D module series was even done... it appeared again in Elder Scrolls, AND in Pathfinder 1E (a version of it was on the Pathfinder wiki last I checked a month ago). So it's become part of the 'mythos' of the 'dark elf' that they were 'turned' when they rejected the elf god(s). Which is the Curse of Ham.</p><p></p><p>Drow then got novels about a 'black guy who wasn't like all the other black guys, he was one of the good ones, so he worked to help the non-Black people go out and hunt down black folks...' (<strong>so um yeah, they went there...</strong>)</p><p></p><p>And again we can have a pointless argument about what kind of black is that - but that's not the point. He could have been a 'white guy who isn't like the other white folk and helped the non-white people hunt white folks' and... the problem would be the same.</p><p></p><p><strong>It ain't the color that matters - it's the concept.</strong></p><p></p><p>So... yeah...</p><p></p><p>Drow have a very messed up legacy.</p><p></p><p>When the Darklands book comes out we will see some serpent people take the role of the bad guys down under, and there will be cavern elves (who look suspiciously like drow anyway) living in cities that offer places of refuge for the tourists from up above.</p><p></p><p><strong>I still think it's a mistake to make a 'race' of bad guys...</strong> but if they make factions of serpent people and 'this nation is up to no good but that one is just doing it's thing' then it'll be good. But I suspect they won't do that.</p><p></p><p>...</p><p></p><p>Anyway...</p><p></p><p>I won't debate this topic. Folks can Google Curse of Ham and get educated, or they can refuse to see it and get mad on their own. Enough threads have been locked by people that don't like to see things or only want racists to be able to speak but never like the folks that counter them getting a say back. So I'm out on this one. The above will hopefully be my mic drop and you can Google it or not to see what I'm speaking of.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kichwas, post: 9041934, member: 891"] Thankfully being deleted. Or at least no future reference to them. Too many fans to just say the word 'delete' even though the effect will be the same. While it is OGL, there is other stuff staying that arguably needs just as much tweaking to be free of OGL. Like Orcs. Both have little to do with the etymology of the words they come from and little to do with prior to D&D versions of creatures like them (Tolkien's Orcs were arguably an Elf with a subclass or heritage). But Drow also have the legacy of being a 'race who started out White, and had their skin turned black because they rejected the Elf God.' And you can argue all day about 'was that African Black or Obsidian Black' but it doesn't matter - that same story is known as the '[B]Curse of Ham[/B]' and was used during the Atlantic Slave Trade to justify enslaving Africans... And while it was retconned out of the Drow before the D module series was even done... it appeared again in Elder Scrolls, AND in Pathfinder 1E (a version of it was on the Pathfinder wiki last I checked a month ago). So it's become part of the 'mythos' of the 'dark elf' that they were 'turned' when they rejected the elf god(s). Which is the Curse of Ham. Drow then got novels about a 'black guy who wasn't like all the other black guys, he was one of the good ones, so he worked to help the non-Black people go out and hunt down black folks...' ([B]so um yeah, they went there...[/B]) And again we can have a pointless argument about what kind of black is that - but that's not the point. He could have been a 'white guy who isn't like the other white folk and helped the non-white people hunt white folks' and... the problem would be the same. [B]It ain't the color that matters - it's the concept.[/B] So... yeah... Drow have a very messed up legacy. When the Darklands book comes out we will see some serpent people take the role of the bad guys down under, and there will be cavern elves (who look suspiciously like drow anyway) living in cities that offer places of refuge for the tourists from up above. [B]I still think it's a mistake to make a 'race' of bad guys...[/B] but if they make factions of serpent people and 'this nation is up to no good but that one is just doing it's thing' then it'll be good. But I suspect they won't do that. ... Anyway... I won't debate this topic. Folks can Google Curse of Ham and get educated, or they can refuse to see it and get mad on their own. Enough threads have been locked by people that don't like to see things or only want racists to be able to speak but never like the folks that counter them getting a say back. So I'm out on this one. The above will hopefully be my mic drop and you can Google it or not to see what I'm speaking of. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Abomination Vaults 5e Pushed Back to January 2024
Top