• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

No More Massive Tomes of Rules

Sidenote, Free League are working on a book on magic for Dragobane. :) Nothing is known about it yet, but they've mentioned it in conversations at cons.
Makes sense to me. Magic is the only area where I really felt Dragonbane was lacking something.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Thomas Shey

Legend
Wildly incorrect in my experience, and apparently the experience of nearly everyone else still engaging with you in this thread. This only makes sense if GMs and players lack any imagination or creativity, and also assumes that both GMs and players read the rules in equal detail, and become sputtering, malfunctioning androids flailing around the room whenever a situation isn't mechanically supported by 10 pages of rules.

You can say what you prefer, but it doesn't make sense to generalize the way you are given the constant and varied pushback you're seeing here.

Or alternatively the people who happened to have responded lean in a particular direction. I know from past experience this board has no lack of people who think "Rulings, not Rules" isn't exactly a virtue.
 


Reynard

Legend
Supporter
I just have to note that if everyone felt that way about it, most of the 80's rules output from, well, practically everyone wouldn't look the way it did. I want to be functioning as a game designer because I want to, not because I have to.

I think there was a lot of experimentation going on in the 80s and early 90s and some designers really got into the idea of crazy mechanics (many of which were not mathematically sound, to say the least). Many people were going for detail. That fell away a little in the 90s, but the books didn't shrink. instead we got volume after volume of metaplot and failed novelists' worldbuilding bibles disguised as RPGs.
This inevitably leads to either having to constantly check with the GM whether something is a practical idea, or finding out the hard way. If I want to do X and think its a reasonable idea, I don't want to find out its a bad one after I'm committed to it, thanks.
Having lots of rules and subsystems doesn't protect you from this. You can still have a reasonable idea and when the GM finally finds the rules in Supplement 36A, your character still has a 78% chance of failing and a 16% chance of dying while doing so.
 

Pedantic

Legend
Exactly so. The referee needs to know the rules, the players don't. The players just need to know what they want to do and state it clearly to the referee. The referee can take it from there.
This moves RPGs out of the bounds of "games" as a field for many players. Playing a game I don't know the rules to (unless we're talking about the sort of puzzle game where learning the rules is in fact the gameplay loop) is something I've described before as a special kind of hell. This takes us into the territory not of people playing a game together, but one person using a game as a mechanism to do something else; an activity that clearly can and does have value, but isn't the same, and doesn't engage the same faculties I'd use to to play any other kind of game.
The rules are important. The rules matter. System matters. But it can, and often does, have a negative impact on player creativity. In my experience, the lighter the rules the more boundless the players' available options; the heavier the rules the more bound by the rules the players' available options. This plays into the most powerful killer feature of RPGs, tactical infinity.
I've argued before this is overrated as the defining feature of RPGs, and I don't think it's necessary to constitute one. I think the far more important feature of the RPG is that their unbounded in resolution and time; the mechanisms might spell out a few loss conditions, but when the game ends and what the goal is are negotiated by the players and not fixed by the game systems; moreover, they continue to be negotiated and changed over the course of play.

I can see the appeal of "I can declare any action" (though of course, you can't really, you can declare any action within the bounds of what the other players, including the GM, can conceive and approve of), but I don't think it's essential.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
This moves RPGs out of the bounds of "games" as a field for many players. Playing a game I don't know the rules to (unless we're talking about the sort of puzzle game where learning the rules is in fact the gameplay loop) is something I've described before as a special kind of hell. This takes us into the territory not of people playing a game together, but one person using a game as a mechanism to do something else; an activity that clearly can and does have value, but isn't the same, and doesn't engage the same faculties I'd use to to play any other kind of game.

I've argued before this is overrated as the defining feature of RPGs, and I don't think it's necessary to constitute one. I think the far more important feature of the RPG is that their unbounded in resolution and time; the mechanisms might spell out a few loss conditions, but when the game ends and what the goal is are negotiated by the players and not fixed by the game systems; moreover, they continue to be negotiated and changed over the course of play.

I can see the appeal of "I can declare any action" (though of course, you can't really, you can declare any action within the bounds of what the other players, including the GM, can conceive and approve of), but I don't think it's essential.
What you're describing sounds more like a boardgame to me. Never doing anything not explicitly covered by some specific rule in 3000+ pages of rules. Having to memorize or constantly look up rules just to play the game. It quickly becomes too cumbersome to actually play. Or worse, have a computer do all that work for you. As you say, it would be a special kind of hell for me.

That direction of design is exactly where Free Kriegsspiel came from. It was a rejection of overly complicated game rules. Which is good for us because Free Kriegsspiel is where the idea of a referee or umpire came from, which directly lead to David Wesely inventing RPGs with Braunstein. The things you're trying to reject are literally the foundational elements of the genre of games we call RPGs.

Sorry. But that line of thought (hyper-detailed and overly restrictive rules) is anathema to the core reasons I play these games. Legit everything you seem to think of as a bug is what I think of as a feature.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Having lots of rules and subsystems doesn't protect you from this. You can still have a reasonable idea and when the GM finally finds the rules in Supplement 36A, your character still has a 78% chance of failing and a 16% chance of dying while doing so.

It saves me the trouble of finding it out the hard way, because I can look it up myself and decide if I want to do it. Otherwise I, at best, have to wait to find out how the GM wants to handle it, or worse, commit to it and then find out.

So written rules don't stop it being a bad idea, but they do stop it being a surprise that its such or consuming extra time.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
What the rules are silent on, players will typically not attempt to do because they simply won't think about it or think it is possible. And what the rules are silent on, game masters will typically not design for because they simply won't think about it or if they do won't think of it as possible. So if you have 1e AD&D, you probably have a whole lot of combats that are in 30x40 foot rooms against a relatively static foe where you charge and lock in melee supported by ranged attacks. And like me you probably had a lot of fun doing it. What you probably didn't have was a lot of running chases on horseback, because while the rules didn't say you couldn't and did imply you could, they said nothing particularly useful about it.
In our case, it was more that they were used to situations the rules covered being foiled by adjudication. When Deirdre used food to lure a bulette away from their settlement, she knew if she got a success that she would do it and not suffer some “well, actually” consequence. When everyone worked together to trick a dragon into eating a corpse they’d poisoned, they could count on success meaning success.

My players actually joked about how they expected the dragon not to eat the corpse for some reason. That’s a tactic that can be foiled (even accidentally) by a well-meaning substitution of logic or other idea for what should happen: it’s a dream dragon, so it only feeds on dreams, or it thinks the corpse is suspicious, or there’s something else that translates into not honoring their intent. Nope, success means success, and that dragon is dead now.

If I’m understanding your point correctly, the purpose for having all these rules is to provide something like an objective reality, so that not only can players know they can engage in horseback chases or mountainside carriage assaults, they’ll going to have a robust mechanism for doing it. I want that robustness without a large volume of rules, which is why I’m working on a robust conflict resolution process. So far, it’s been going well.
 

Maggan

Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
Otherwise I, at best, have to wait to find out how the GM wants to handle it, or worse, commit to it and then find out.
We hash it out while playing.

Player: I want to grab the chandelier and swing over the henchmen to land right in front of the villain!
GM: Wow, yeah ... that's cool. Hmmmm, sure I'll allow it but you have to succeed a check agains Acrobativs with disadvantage, otherwise you fall in the middle of the henchmen.
Player: Sounds fair, I'll do it!

At my table players don't have to commit to an action if they don't know the risk they're taking. And it's a standard in my group with every other GM as well.
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
It saves me the trouble of finding it out the hard way, because I can look it up myself and decide if I want to do it. Otherwise I, at best, have to wait to find out how the GM wants to handle it, or worse, commit to it and then find out.

So written rules don't stop it being a bad idea, but they do stop it being a surprise that its such or consuming extra time.
At the cost of a bunch of wasted time. You spend 20 minutes finding, reading and parsing the rule, only to discover that the thing you declared you were doing is a bad decision. Now you have to retcon your choice and spend another 20 minutes looking up the rules of a different action. (I'm being hyperbolic for effect, of course).

The alternative is to trust the GM to give you a DC and roll the damn dice.
 

Remove ads

Top