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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9343376" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>We don't use grappling much at my tables. It seems other than people planning to use "cheese grater" tactics, it (and therefore athletics) just don't come up. </p><p></p><p>I do agree with the investigation vs perception issue, and it is something I address at my own tables. Again though, that ends up being a table-centric consideration. If people allow investigation to work seperately then the value of perception is lessened. If they don't, it rises. </p><p></p><p>I think this comes back to my greater point though. This isn't really something I can lay at the feet of WotC. It feels much more like an issue caused by table cultures and holdover habits from older editions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>More robust skill training could be a nice middle ground for this. The issue I've always found is that 250 uninterrupted days of training (per RAW) is just a nightmare to fit into a campaign. </p><p></p><p>Also, would this take into account the Skilled feat? That could essentially read "gain expertise in three skills" with this system.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yep</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True, that can work. I just tend to run into it where a character, I don't know, sees a ring on someone's finger with a symbol, and wants to identify it. It is all in their head, and it doesn't make sense for them to turn to their buddy and say "doesn't that symbol on that ring look familiar?" when standing in front of the person. </p><p></p><p>My general rule of thumb is that anything physical, help action is easy. Things that are mental get split into two camps. Exploration/Ruin stuff? Help is fine, it is like doing research together. Social things involving people? Tell me how you help in a way that makes sense, and you can do it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Basically having a Investigation check where you look over a location, and then "replay" the scene. So, you could look over the sight of an ambush, and then get an accurately narrated "vision" of what went down. You see Sherlock do this sometimes in some movies and shows, where he starts playing a scene around him, putting people in their places and "seeing" actions and such that he just seems to know. </p><p></p><p>I would probably limit it to a 1/day or 1/SR, but I like having it as a fairly powerful investigative tool.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><em>scribbles notes</em></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It works for me, because usually the person can't get it back. Sure, go ahead and throw your greataxe, but then you are going to have a hard time getting it back to swing in future attacks.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I wouldn't do that except as a class ability. But I have noticed my players LOVE Zone of Truth, so I figured a "you learn one true thing without having to ask them" ability would be something they would gobble up.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Legitimately, yes. There was also a great scene in Hellavu Boss, where one character had a whole musical number, called "Look at this" It is a little goofy, but if you are a bard or something similar, this might be an ability you are 100% looking for. It would need to be limited to once per combat, and maybe even once per day though, because that level of "everyone else gets a free turn to position and heal" can be BRUTAL</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, that is part of why I thought of this, because losing an action can be rough.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9343376, member: 6801228"] We don't use grappling much at my tables. It seems other than people planning to use "cheese grater" tactics, it (and therefore athletics) just don't come up. I do agree with the investigation vs perception issue, and it is something I address at my own tables. Again though, that ends up being a table-centric consideration. If people allow investigation to work seperately then the value of perception is lessened. If they don't, it rises. I think this comes back to my greater point though. This isn't really something I can lay at the feet of WotC. It feels much more like an issue caused by table cultures and holdover habits from older editions. More robust skill training could be a nice middle ground for this. The issue I've always found is that 250 uninterrupted days of training (per RAW) is just a nightmare to fit into a campaign. Also, would this take into account the Skilled feat? That could essentially read "gain expertise in three skills" with this system. Yep True, that can work. I just tend to run into it where a character, I don't know, sees a ring on someone's finger with a symbol, and wants to identify it. It is all in their head, and it doesn't make sense for them to turn to their buddy and say "doesn't that symbol on that ring look familiar?" when standing in front of the person. My general rule of thumb is that anything physical, help action is easy. Things that are mental get split into two camps. Exploration/Ruin stuff? Help is fine, it is like doing research together. Social things involving people? Tell me how you help in a way that makes sense, and you can do it. Basically having a Investigation check where you look over a location, and then "replay" the scene. So, you could look over the sight of an ambush, and then get an accurately narrated "vision" of what went down. You see Sherlock do this sometimes in some movies and shows, where he starts playing a scene around him, putting people in their places and "seeing" actions and such that he just seems to know. I would probably limit it to a 1/day or 1/SR, but I like having it as a fairly powerful investigative tool. [I]scribbles notes[/I] ;) It works for me, because usually the person can't get it back. Sure, go ahead and throw your greataxe, but then you are going to have a hard time getting it back to swing in future attacks. Yeah, I wouldn't do that except as a class ability. But I have noticed my players LOVE Zone of Truth, so I figured a "you learn one true thing without having to ask them" ability would be something they would gobble up. Legitimately, yes. There was also a great scene in Hellavu Boss, where one character had a whole musical number, called "Look at this" It is a little goofy, but if you are a bard or something similar, this might be an ability you are 100% looking for. It would need to be limited to once per combat, and maybe even once per day though, because that level of "everyone else gets a free turn to position and heal" can be BRUTAL Yeah, that is part of why I thought of this, because losing an action can be rough. [/QUOTE]
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