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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9334886" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Really? A grown, 6 ft man can reach and travel in every single place a 6 inch mouse can? Rogues aren't even allowed to roll stealth if they don't have total concealment.</p><p></p><p>Also, again, acid splash, heck you can ray of frost a lock to freeze it then break it with your staff or a crowbar. Knock is not the only possible way to deal with a locked door.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I like the build, so I mentioned it. They don't NEED it. IT is just a fun one. Also, those other characters usually don't benefit from being full spellcasters at the same time, or using their primary spellcasting stat to attack. And those that do... don't take Shillelagh usually. (except for Tome Locks)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I know they fall behind Fighters and Paladins. Not sure how you figure Rangers, since Rangers also don't get a level 11 boost. But I also don't think they fall behind monks. IT is subclass dependent though, perhaps. I'd have to re-run the numbers from a few years ago.</p><p></p><p>Of course, all of this is moot. Because the only thing you count in combat seems to be damage with an ability score mod attached, everything else is either terrible or useless, unless it is a defensive spell.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Only one of those things increases your accuracy without spending a resource, and that one is meant to counter cover rules, which increase the target number. I mean, I guess if you are fine having a +9 to hit an AC of 23 to 25, go for it, but it doesn't matter how many attacks you get if most of them miss anyways.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I guess you forget that Heat Metal causes the enemy disadvantage on every attack? Also it is a ranged spell, and melee enemies are going to have a hard time even reaching you. </p><p></p><p>Seriously, do you not even consider range and party members at all? You keep acting like back-line characters are going to be in the thick of the fighting, taking focus fire from every single enemy on the board, every turn. That isn't how combat typically works. </p><p></p><p>And even mediocre spells can be killer.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, no, seriously, what the actual heck are you assuming here? I cast a spell that takes 9 out of 10 enemies out of the fight, and somehow they get 3 rounds of freely waking everyone else up? Did the rest of the party go out for chicken wings? There is one active enemy who can wake up one other enemy. We should have at least three different party members focusing that guy down. Even if you CAN'T kill him in that one round [and he's an ORC, he has 15 hp and we are level 5! Two attacks should end him] then there are two orcs awake, one of whom should be on the verge of death. So we kill him this round and the other orc wakes up... a single orc. We now have 7 unconscious orcs, and two awake orcs... and for two rounds of combat the party has not been hit a single time. </p><p></p><p>The DM being nice? The DM is looking at a losing proposition, either the party keep getting free rounds of combat with no reprisal, or they leave the other orcs sitting helplessly. I would love the DM to keep wasting time waking the orcs, by the time all of them are awake, half of them will be dead and I just single-handedly was responsible for stopping somewhere around 50 attacks from the enemy and causing five orc deaths. </p><p></p><p>Does your party just wander away and leave you to play solo, is that what happens? Because I can't see how else you are imagining 3 rounds of combat going by with not a single enemy combatant being defeated when none of them are even fighting back.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>d8+mod is decent damage at level 5. It isn't amazing, but again, I was talking about using Enemies Abound to have one of the enemy turn around and attack their allies. Also... the bard is just as good at healing as most druids and clerics, and they have better control than most clerics. </p><p></p><p>I know I haven't seen highly effective bard players, and I've STILL seen them accomplish far more than you seem to think is even possible.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You may think they can, I was told they could only do it if they have the proper tools to break rocks. And likely they would only allow it for small rocks, not entire walls, without multiple minutes of effort. </p><p></p><p>And yes, HP is impossible. Can fighter's take ACTIONS instead of you just keep insisting "but they can survive taking a ton of damage! That's impossible!" So can the wizard, the wizard can also fly, have your dead grandmother claw your eyes out, make you THINK your dead grandmother is clawing your eyes out, and turn people into newts. One of these things is more impossible than falling face first into concrete repeatedly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. It isn't right. This is a team game, which you seem to have no conception of from your various posts. Like, I seriously wonder if you only play solo, except you mentioned a team in one of your other posts. </p><p></p><p>I think it is the biggest flaw with this edition, that being a martial so often means that you are overshadowed by the casters who need to make no effort to do so. This isn't a game where the casters should always be better than everyone else. That isn't how you design a team game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9334886, member: 6801228"] Really? A grown, 6 ft man can reach and travel in every single place a 6 inch mouse can? Rogues aren't even allowed to roll stealth if they don't have total concealment. Also, again, acid splash, heck you can ray of frost a lock to freeze it then break it with your staff or a crowbar. Knock is not the only possible way to deal with a locked door. I like the build, so I mentioned it. They don't NEED it. IT is just a fun one. Also, those other characters usually don't benefit from being full spellcasters at the same time, or using their primary spellcasting stat to attack. And those that do... don't take Shillelagh usually. (except for Tome Locks) I know they fall behind Fighters and Paladins. Not sure how you figure Rangers, since Rangers also don't get a level 11 boost. But I also don't think they fall behind monks. IT is subclass dependent though, perhaps. I'd have to re-run the numbers from a few years ago. Of course, all of this is moot. Because the only thing you count in combat seems to be damage with an ability score mod attached, everything else is either terrible or useless, unless it is a defensive spell. Only one of those things increases your accuracy without spending a resource, and that one is meant to counter cover rules, which increase the target number. I mean, I guess if you are fine having a +9 to hit an AC of 23 to 25, go for it, but it doesn't matter how many attacks you get if most of them miss anyways. I guess you forget that Heat Metal causes the enemy disadvantage on every attack? Also it is a ranged spell, and melee enemies are going to have a hard time even reaching you. Seriously, do you not even consider range and party members at all? You keep acting like back-line characters are going to be in the thick of the fighting, taking focus fire from every single enemy on the board, every turn. That isn't how combat typically works. And even mediocre spells can be killer. Okay, no, seriously, what the actual heck are you assuming here? I cast a spell that takes 9 out of 10 enemies out of the fight, and somehow they get 3 rounds of freely waking everyone else up? Did the rest of the party go out for chicken wings? There is one active enemy who can wake up one other enemy. We should have at least three different party members focusing that guy down. Even if you CAN'T kill him in that one round [and he's an ORC, he has 15 hp and we are level 5! Two attacks should end him] then there are two orcs awake, one of whom should be on the verge of death. So we kill him this round and the other orc wakes up... a single orc. We now have 7 unconscious orcs, and two awake orcs... and for two rounds of combat the party has not been hit a single time. The DM being nice? The DM is looking at a losing proposition, either the party keep getting free rounds of combat with no reprisal, or they leave the other orcs sitting helplessly. I would love the DM to keep wasting time waking the orcs, by the time all of them are awake, half of them will be dead and I just single-handedly was responsible for stopping somewhere around 50 attacks from the enemy and causing five orc deaths. Does your party just wander away and leave you to play solo, is that what happens? Because I can't see how else you are imagining 3 rounds of combat going by with not a single enemy combatant being defeated when none of them are even fighting back. d8+mod is decent damage at level 5. It isn't amazing, but again, I was talking about using Enemies Abound to have one of the enemy turn around and attack their allies. Also... the bard is just as good at healing as most druids and clerics, and they have better control than most clerics. I know I haven't seen highly effective bard players, and I've STILL seen them accomplish far more than you seem to think is even possible. You may think they can, I was told they could only do it if they have the proper tools to break rocks. And likely they would only allow it for small rocks, not entire walls, without multiple minutes of effort. And yes, HP is impossible. Can fighter's take ACTIONS instead of you just keep insisting "but they can survive taking a ton of damage! That's impossible!" So can the wizard, the wizard can also fly, have your dead grandmother claw your eyes out, make you THINK your dead grandmother is clawing your eyes out, and turn people into newts. One of these things is more impossible than falling face first into concrete repeatedly. No. It isn't right. This is a team game, which you seem to have no conception of from your various posts. Like, I seriously wonder if you only play solo, except you mentioned a team in one of your other posts. I think it is the biggest flaw with this edition, that being a martial so often means that you are overshadowed by the casters who need to make no effort to do so. This isn't a game where the casters should always be better than everyone else. That isn't how you design a team game. [/QUOTE]
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